I dont think Id ever met her, but we were serving on the same board together and we became acquainted and occasionally talked about getting together some way or other. Second of all, I am not a classic liberal, so Ive thought for 20 or 25 years that classic 60s liberalism was the wrong way to go. So we were not classmates, and we were not buddies in that sense, but we knew each other pretty well by standards of students who were not in the same year. I think there were missed opportunities, yes; I dont believe they would have made a big difference however. Some of thats a function of, for lack of a better word, the culture within the group of people who worked in this administration, so that there is no penalty paid, in effect, among your former colleagues for being outspoken or saying something in the press critical to the President. I can recall David Halberstam on the way out saying to me that he never heard a politician as effective as Clinton since JFK [John Fitzgerald Kennedy]. They just didnt come to the Secretary, to the Chairman of the RTC, no more than investigations being pursued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, or the Secret Service or what have you come to the Secretary of the Treasury. Can you tell us a little bit about the second role? Youre working on prospective personnel issues? Then, as the weeks and months went by, it came closer and closer and closer to whip counts. Id had served before and seen how not to do it. We just didnt know, and thats pretty amazing, the biggest piece of legislation, the voting has actually begun. Clinton had one and in this instance, on the stimulus program, he should have listened to him. I can vote against it, tell my constituents Ill never support a tax increase. Remember, youre playing for four years, youre not playing for one year. And that was fairly late, right, when Bowles came in? He said he wanted to tell me that the President had decided to appoint Bentsen to be Secretary of the Treasury and Rubin to be head of the National Economic Council. I didnt, no. I mean, I have no reservations about when Lloyd Bentsen approached me, I think he thought it was just going to be very brief and wed send some name up and it wouldnt take long to get that name confirmed and I might end up spending two or three months doing this. If he predicted over the two years I worked for him, the fate of 25 pieces of legislation, he was right on all 25. What Im interested in is your perception of when the views that crystallized with economic policies were adopted in the first months of the administration. Was that true of Georgetown at the time that you were there? So I dont think my reactions to that were really any different than anybody else following the campaign. Bentsen managed himself with extraordinary skill. He loved it. Of course, the fact of a summit means you have to have some agreement, and we had an agreement. Bill Clinton, by that one- or two-line standing, may not make the cut for the top tier. I was there to the last day of the Carter Presidency, and all of a sudden we were able to negotiate the release of those hostages. May I ask you if a part of the political calculus at the time was, Weve just come through a bruising battle with no Republican votes, weve got to do something to reach out and to reestablish better relations with a party thats not going anywhere over the next year, probably for the rest of the Presidency? But I didnt have any knowledge of this stuff. Its really quite stunning. And, to some degree it was also, of course, for Clinton to take the measure of certain people he might be appointing. Of course, by November 94, many of the benefits of this program had not yet evolved. Was there awareness at that time, I mean, in the perspective of 2003, I recognize the world looks different. If nobody else has any more questions about that, the other trade issue that you were greatly involved with that we touched on only once or twice has been Japan. Did you go to Little Rock for the election? Were you privy to the conversations that he had? I stayed overnight, went back the next day. I doubt that youll see that. That was a wonderful comment. Is this a case where the political people were encouraging him to hold his ground? Do you have anyyou were sort of one of the casualties of this campaign, but was the Whitewater thing separate from this hate stuff? My comment is a retrospective comment. For example, the Btu tax and the raising of the highest rate, highest bracket. Gene Sperling was in it. But there was a discontinuity between the campaign and the administration, In this respect exactly right. Those carve-outs were all done on a tripartite basis. Were you consulting with the President occasionally after you left Washington and came back to New York? I think our administration tried, as hard as it was possible to try, to change the dynamic of the U.S.-Japanese trade relationship. No, I dont remember the actual moment when we met. I said to him, If I should resign, then thats what I want to do. How do you think Clinton ultimately is going to be read by historians, this Presidency? We havent exhausted the topic of budgets and we want to talk further about that, but since youve already opened the door on this question about historical opposition and so forth, I thought that you might want to discuss your perceptions about how the existence of that institution changes the dynamic in Washington. He told me what would happen to the Clinton stimulus bill the day it was put forward. Last weekend, Roger Altman was back at his ranch in Wyomings Jackson Hole, looking tanned and relaxed, entertaining friends like White House chief economist I think the days for that have largely passed, I dont think members of Congress care much about that. I mean, there are libraries full of books that have already been written about that. Mr. Altman returned to Washington in 1993 to serve as Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for two years. I believe it was a five-year statute of limitations and the expiration date was January 94 or February or something like that. from Georgetown University and an MBA from the University of Chicago. So I felt very chastened by what Gene had said. But my first point is that that entire team was out there promoting the Presidents economic package, both crisscrossing the country for that purpose, speaking, visiting Congressional districts and so forth, testifying on it of course, visiting one-on-one with members of Congress. The second was the evolution of the deficit estimates during that period. When we took office and took a hard look at the deficit estimates, they were considerably worse than we had thought. I did have the impression from the beginning that he was politically gifted and ambitious. While most of this was extreme and unjustified, President Clinton played a role in it himself. Its probably strange humor in this instance. We then embarked on a search for a candidate and give or take three or four months later found one who, ironically, was a Republican. I think Clinton was better served by virtue of Perots presence in the campaign than without it. I think he saw the political opportunity presented by that in addition to the basic merits of NAFTA. So I attribute that to just the fact that Woodward talked a lot to Greenspan, but that may be just an incorrect take on it. No, he doesnt, not in terms of the way I would define close friends, genuine friends. When we had the opportunity to sit down, our own leadershipyou mentioned Leon Panetta, for example, having been chosenand formulate a fresh set of estimates based on all the then latest data, and obviously reaching out to a whole host of experts, it became clear that the deficit outlook was considerably worse than we thought. So anyway, within a few days, all of us who had anything to do with the RTC from the point of view of the Treasury were subpoenaed by Fiske. The ultimate plan was way too complicated for the Congress and the country to grasp and understand and soberly assess. I taught at Georgetown for a little while, and the distinguishing features of the students that I would have had ten or twelve years ago were that they had a high degree of interest in national and international politics. After all, John Kennedy is seen in the middle by historians. He would explain to me the problems with the particular pieces, but, I dont know if you had to be Bentsen, did you? Like everybody else, I thought he was finished when the Gennifer Flowers event emerged. Bob Rubin. I started doing a lot of the same thing Id done on the economic plan: radio shows, television stuff, running around the country. You would have thought Senator Bentsen would have felt that way also, unless there was an assumption that this was literally going to be a few weeks time. It was the best political speech, with a couple of exceptions, Id ever heard, which prompted a wonderful comment from former President Bush, who then came to the microphone and said, Now I know why Im on the outside looking in. Did you have close relations with people in Cuomos operation, because I think, at least in the early stages, there was still a consideration that he might come out? There are too many people in his own administration, at least at the moment, who think that all he finally did was succumb to the Republican position, and anybody who wore a D on his shirt and supported the Republican position could have brought along enough Ds to make the bill happen. I cant cite the examples that I can cite about the National Economic Council, because I studied that for Clinton, but I doubt it. Youve been good to give us so much time. But part of our efforts were to get the Japanese to agree to certain pump-priming measures at home to lift domestic demand, increase the Japanese demand for imports, and better balance the current account relationship. I guess that again leads to the question about the uncertainty and anxiety of a transition period, trying to figure out which person. I just know from prior experience that thats the way to do it. He may have kicked it off in a certain sense, but it has continued even more strongly to some degree in the last couple of years, but that was another broad historical development, critical historical development, which characterized the Clinton period. I dont mean that facetiously. So it was job one, so to speak. People trooped down and sat around and briefed Carter, but he was sitting there figuring out do I want to appoint this guy or that person, and so forth. But as to whether it was an innovation, I doubt it. There may have been, but I know I didnt feel it. I did too. Was there a contrasting case in your experience in the Clinton administration where support was received both sides of the aisle and soughtwas it sought in the budget case? Roger C. Altman. Exactly. So my wife and I flew down to Little Rock and I met with Clinton for about two hours. He voted against it, we had a boom, he never paid a dimes worth of price for that. I also think Clinton knew he was going to go up against some of his oldest allies, whether it was Marian Wright Edelman, whomever it was, in terms of welfare reform, and was prepared to do it, but wasnt really looking forward to it. It wasnt as simple as that, lay the groundwork for a new agreement. Im Gary Burtless. I recall reading in one account that Clinton had worked on a kind of unusual cluster of issues as a candidate for student body president at the time. There are some people who wouldsome of the George H. W. Bush people date the partisanship from the budget deal. There was also a very memorable event that was held in the East Room of the White House, and recall that within a week or two of this event, Clintons own position on NAFTA was still up in the air. But the burden of my question was it would be a lot of the people whod voted for the economic package that youre putting in this position, right? The contrast between Chicago, which was in an uproar at the time, and Georgetown couldnt have been more vivid. The political process requires an outcome. In the initial phases it was really broad strategy because we didnt yet know. In retrospect, I think those are the two main reasons he embraced it. I mean I hired really good lawyers, and they told me pretty early in the process that on the substance there was no issue, that you have to worry about the fact that in this country prosecutions can become very political, but they just didnt think that it was much of an issue on the legal precedence and the substance. Then it went down to defeat. I thought, All right, well get half a loaf. There could be a lot of backsliding on that, well have to see. Secretary Bentsen didnt know about it but a lot of other people did, and nobody paid much attention to it. No one thought on the morning of the election that Clinton was going to lose and Bush was going to win. We talked a lot about the organization of economic policy-making and the role of the Treasury because I had a certain history. We might have a thousand independent counsels operating under the freedom of the press, investigations. I thought that was pretty funny. My memory is a bit fuzzy on that. Did that debate begin as early as August? And it turned around and by November 84 as you remember, it was Morning in America and he won 49 states. So he performed a similar role. But absent such a crisis, history tends not to treat you as a great President. I cant think of anything you didnt ask me, or anything I didnt say that I would have liked to have said, so with that exception. So one knew through the press who was going and so forth. But that battle was resolved in favor of the revolution, the most sweeping alternative, and I dont really have a lot to add beyond whats been written. Altman Thats true, yes. He thought he could win over the majority of the Democrats, for example in the House, on NAFTA. I think at the Pond House meetings there were also some of the Congressional leaders, werent there? I was on the board of the Childrens Television Workshop, now called the Sesame Workshop, the entity that produces Sesame Street and related childrens programming. Actually, each White House that I was familiar with had its own version of what we called the National Economic Council, and if you look back for example, during the Nixon and Ford administrations, they had something quite similar. Sure. For the first part of the Clinton years, Arthur Burns was famously mystical, quite like Greenspan. But its just a reality that in an economy of that size, spending changes arent going to have much effect on the economy; monetary changes can. You see a lot of candidates you know arent going to work that way. Was it his personality? By the end of the year it had become a massive issue. Theres one thing about Clinton that I think is beyond debate, that hes a fabulous politician. There ensued a quite Byzantine process, as has been so widely written about with multiple task forces and enormous numbers of people involved.There were a lot of these Bill Clinton-style meetings, great big long meetings with far too many people in the room. Were there things about those campaigns that you had learned in preparation for this one that proved to be particularly helpful? Theres some story that he demanded a commission on entitlement reform as a price. I think each person makes his or her own decision. I also told him, which was quite a mistake, that I was thinking about recusing myself from the case because I realized that there was such a conflict here between being a member of the administration on one hand and being a Federal regulator on the other. I knew a lot about Perot, having been heavily involved in Wall Street for many years. I do recall some rushed discussions at the very end about what we do now and how we flesh out his policies, and I can recall talking to George Stephanopoulos the morning the convention ended about certain steps we were going to take now in terms of getting better organized on policy development and issues. I dont think hes going to make it into the pantheon of heroes, as I said. While at the University, It was very effective because it was a group of roughly 20-25 people, working literally 19-20 hours a day with only one mission, and that mission was to get this bill passed. Well, it was supposed to become the law of North America on January 1st, wasnt it? He really enjoyed it, stayed up every night till four in the morning, and believe me, I know that because I was going to his room at three in the morning with these various wordings. So I think you had a President who was seen as very slickand he had that reputation before he became Presidentand then this upsurge in partisanship generally. He paid more attention to golf and girls in University. I wasnt telling him anything he didnt know, God knows, but that we were going to enter now a different phase in terms of the laser light of press scrutiny on policies and that we had to deepen the entire effort, and there was agreement on that. It was a voluntary choice. Mexican trucking, citrus, tomatoes, Im not joking. Bentsen was chosen during the first week of December. My point is, I thought the whole discussion had a considerable impact on Clinton, as did scores of others along the way after that. There was no surprise. As I remember the NAFTA campaign was kicked off only a month or two later. Id become a pretty active Democrat in New York, particularly active by standards of Wall Street, which still had relatively few visible Democrats in its midst. Bentsen had run for Congress at a very young age, successfully, was re-elected two or three times, then quit and went into business and was very successful in business. Im not sure anyone is ever going to pay a penalty in American society for that type of commentary. Not giving it a lot of thought, frankly, I said, Sure. Before we come back to this, I want to pose one question and that is about the Presidents style when he was working the phones with members of the House. The Office of Government Ethics came to its conclusion and the Treasury Inspector General as you know is an independent party and came to the same conclusions, the White House counsel came to the same conclusion. That raises the question then of the people he was meeting with here. There was a stimulus package that dwindled, right? That was my third or fourth trip, in 93. If Im not mistaken, we were looking at a $350 billion deficit, up from about $260 or something that we had been generally using during the campaign. So those ideas were developed during the campaign. His popularity had sunk to low levels. Ill never forget that, he was a good guy, a real good old boy, I cant recall his name now, hes not in Congress any longer, but I arrived at the airport and he meets me and he says, Look, just get one thing straight, youre not going to say a word today about guns, nothing. Or was it just that you were persuaded that he was going to be a great candidate? I should be very careful here. There was some action forcing the schedule and the President would have had to ditch the treaty, just say, Ive decided Im not for it. The assessment was correct because, I cant recall the size of the economy then, but today it is about $10.7 trillion. The Senate Finance Committee is the most powerful committee, Bentsen had been chairman for quite a few years, was seen universally as a very effective, powerful chairman. There was a widespread sense that Japan was taking advantage of the relationshipin various ways. So, for example, the partisanship in Washington hasnt particularly declined since President Clinton left office. That was just how all Presidents should act. Roger Altman, better known by her family name Roger Charles Altman, is a popular American Financial professional. If you go to Monticello, to his actual tombstone, then you know that he drafted his own epitaph: Governor of Virginia, founder of the University of Virginia, and author of the Declaration of Independence. Bentsen never lost an election, period, on which he was head of the ticket, ever. So I think it was quite smart to be done then. We were tough on them on autos. So Clinton wisely determined that this was something that Bentsen ultimately had to make the call on. No, I did not. Did he come to you with an idea about what he wanted to focus on with the economy or some of his primary domestic policies, or was this at this point still in the process of being formulated? Was it Mickey Kantor? Was there a perceivable influence from your perspective on having Perot in the campaign, making the deficit an issue from his vantage point? There was quite a discussion that day about long-term interest rates, as I said the credit markets rather than the Fed. The hearings ended around the fourth or fifth of August and it was now the seventeenth or something. Ill give you an answer but Ill preface it by saying Im not sure my memory is quite right here. We just kept the pressure on the best we could. So it could be revived again tomorrow. But I think he may turn out to have transformed the party, which really is an important historical achievement. I think that there wasagain, I dont follow this that closelybut there was a fast reaction in short-term rates when the Federal Reserve Board loosened, early on, in what appeared to be quid pro quoGreenspan offered some assurance to Congress that the Fed would be cognizant of the Federal. It really wasnt that way. That was partly because Bentsen was a person who had never failed at anything. In other words, all the work that goes in before its actually sent to the Hill. He served as assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury from 1977 to 1981 before returning to Lehman, where he later became co-head of overall investment banking as well as a member of the management committee and board. A little bit. Clinton had talked of course during the campaign about cutting the deficit in half during his first four years. Did you think that they took those claims seriously, or was this pure politics? I mean just the vote itself and the fact that not a single Republican voted for this, which even by its critics is seen now as having been at least a contributor to the economic prosperity and fiscal balance that later resulted. I mean, maybe Reagan was to some degree briefly an anomaly, although he never had the reputation of being an anomaly, and so I wondered if the President, as Commander-In-Chief, also responsible for foreign policy, viewed this particular policy in that light too. And I also think that theres a certain sense of loyalty among the people that are currently serving in this administration, which is more in keeping with tradition, than the Clinton folks, or many of them I should say, brought to it. How difficult was it to raise money in the environment, Cuomo aside, just for somebody who had been a Governor of Arkansas in a campaign season when theres. Youre serving your country. Here we are in June 2003 and the election as we all know is November 04, so its 16 months or so before the election, 17 months, and right now of course, the campaign among the Democratic aspirants for the nomination is hot, full-bore, and has been for several months. But it was a rather fluid, floating group. Were there any members in particular with whom you worked directly that you felt you were personally responsible for salvaging? It got more organized as 92 unfolded. Altman ran the White House war room during last This goes back to that question about the interim between the pain and the payoff. By that late stage of the budget battle, all the concessions and fine-tuning that could be made to the bill had already been done, so you had a package at that point that wasnt going to be reopened. At best I had an input, and in some cases it was just obvious that some of these other folks had to be in it. The President relied on Bentsen and Altman to take on some of his Administrations toughest tasks. I think thats a wonderful tradition. You indicated that the President did it right with Treasury. Is he going to become President? He loved policy. Id have to do a little homework. It was Clintons first, if I recall correctly, major international summit. Speaking out of school? The process was really quite intense and they were taking on a task that was utterly immense, a much bigger one really than the economic program, and came forth with a plan that was revolutionary, but whose revolutionariness doomed it. There was no committee per se but he had a few people who were involved at that point and doing something like looking at Putting People First and editing it, and then just these periodic conversations we would have on the fly. I dont recall precisely, but Im sure Im right that Clintons standing in the polls was ebbing. During the preparation would you call that an organized group? And presided over eight years of peace. You can see it in real life at 3901 S. Michigan Avenue, about 20 minutes from the Because if you decided not to go on NAFTA you really couldnt ever go back and say, Im a pro-trade President. As far as healthcare versus welfare reform? Those meetings were, at one level, rather riveting, but at another level they were disorganized. In addition, Mr. Altman is a director of New Visions for Public Schools and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. It was a very unusual evening, because there was a sense, as I say, we were interring the candidate. You become President, theres a new Congress. Finally the famous proposal comes forward and its put before the Congress. Its not as easy. Does that mean that the first initiative of the new President, should he, she, be a Democrat be healthcare? We wanted Japan to commit to rebalance the current account between the two countries, including committing itself to some pro-growth steps at home, and we wanted a specific agreement on autos and certain other things. But you ended up doing a lot of strange things. He moved it to the center, made it the party of fiscal responsibilitywhoever would have believed that?and enabled the party to shed much of its old baggage. Clintons that way. Did you think it was a waste of time at that point? I think his views at that point were in formation. They werent really involved in the doing of the plan. And the next point I want to make is, there was a fateful meeting, like most of these things, very well chronicled now, in Little Rock, up at the transition, the economic team, lasted many hours, very organized meeting in the sense that it had a set of presentations and then a broad discussion. You know, the only other thought I would express on this is, despite the drama of the moment and the stakes, everyone, as they say, puts on his pants one leg at a time. Clinton is nothing if not rigid. And its not the right move to inform a Cabinet officer that his team is Mr. X, Miss Y, and Miss Z. I have a very old-fashioned view about that. Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia, Notice of Non-Discrimination and Equal Opportunity. You couldnt do that. Actually, as often happens in Washington, accounts of that testimony appeared in a lot of newspapers and mostly on page D20. So its also part of the Treasury tradition to do it that way. The House voted first, and on the day of the House vote we didnt think we had the votes, or at least we thought the odds were too high that we would lose. Yes, because obviously I was seen as somebody who had business credentials to some degree, conservative credentials, by Democratic standards at least. I was in Tokyo, asleep, so I was a bit taken aback. I mean, youre sent down there, you have no training for it. It was not as big a change as it was advertised to be, or has been seen historically. I was completelyclean bill of health from the independent counsel. Thats one of the things that kind of surprises. Toward the middle and latter stages they met everyday. Scientist, architect, botanist, Copyright 2023. Mike Blumenthal, the first Secretary of the Treasury, knew, but he didnt have a close relationship with Carter. The meetings became sort of a phenomenon and some people thought they were great because they were so inclusive and here we were having opportunities to spend hours with the President. I went and visited the injured agents in the hospital. So it was a very interesting dynamic. No, the rest of those were really in the purview, in the ambit of Larry Summers. No, two funny stories, Jim, dont let him off so easily. 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